Q: MaTaN is now in its eighteenth year. Can you take us back to its founding? What led you to start such an institution?
A: Let me go back to when I first came to Israel to study at Michlala right after the Six Day War. I had attended a Bais Yaacov school in Baltimore where I hadn’t learned any Mishna or Gemara. At Michlala, I studied Mishna, and felt that it was a pity not to further expand my learning, now that I had been given a taste of the subject. I also thought that I would learn Gemara in the future. If it was available, why shouldn’t women do it? However, I put this thought on the backburner, met my husband, got married and we came to America where I completed a Masters program at Revel at Yeshiva University. During the course of these studies, I learned certain sugiyot of Gemara.
When I returned to Israel, I taught at Machon Gold and at Shappell’s for Rabbi Brovender. I was working with the women in the Beit Midrash, helping them to prepare for shiurim in Mishna. There were 10-15 very bright academic women. It so happened that the women decided they wanted to learn Gemara as well. Rabbi Brovender’s response was: “why not?” I had not learned a lot of Gemara myself and so had to engage in a great deal of preparation to help them prepare. But it was immensely satisfying. I could also see that it was challenging for all of us and we felt more part of the halakhic system through Gemara learning. We felt the energy of Torah. After this, I continued learning in chavrutot with a core group of Jerusalem women, and we had a dream together to make this a formal arrangement.
Q: What was your goal at that time?
A: My goal was to open up an institution B”H that would welcome any woman who wanted to come to study. The dream was not just to provide adult education for women, including high level Talmud studies, but to create a strong beit midrash that would be a wellspring for future female religious leaders.
“MaTaN is a catalyst for female religious leaders in Israeli society”
Q: How radical a step was the founding of MaTaN in 1988 and its incorporation of Gemara teaching for women?
A: By 1988, Rabbi Soloveitchik had already taught his famous initial Gemara shiur at Stern College. We had the approval of HaRav Aharon Lichtenstein, and many modern Orthodox rabbanim viewed our idea favorably. I had the support of my husband (editor’s note—Rabbi Aharon Bina) and had explored piskei halakha (religious decisions) about teaching of Torah she’be’al peh (Oral Law) to women and girls. Many rabbis had given approval—such as Rabbi David Auerbach, nephew of HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, in Halikhot Beta. I personally had obtained approval from HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach to teach groups of women Torah she’be’al peh to strengthen their attachment to Torah and Judaism. I saw this not just for ba’alot teshuva, but also for all Orthodox women to strengthen their attachment to Torah as they saw that Torah learning was dynamic and there was always further to go in it.
Q: MaTaN is known for the outstanding quality of its faculty. Did you have trouble getting teachers at the beginning?
A: No. We began and have continued with a strong faculty. It was understood that we had the approval of HaRav Soloveitchik. HaRav Lichtenstein had given official approval and was on our rabbinic board of advisors. He recommended several of his students who joined our faculty, and many wonderful teachers came from other Torah institutions.
Q: Studies at MaTaN include Tanakh, Gemara, Halakha, Aggada and Jewish Thought. What did you see as the goal of MaTaN?
A: We wanted the learning at MaTaN to be a mainstream activity for post high school religious women who would devote themselves to Torah Lishma (Torah for its own sake), not necessarily for a degree. I consider that it took 10 years for MaTaN to become mainstream and no longer be peripheral. Originally there were 4 to 6 women in the beit midrash. Now we have 22 women in a three-year Talmud program, and 20 in the Tanakh program. These are women from other areas of study who spend between one to three years at MaTaN. Getting a degree is optional—about 60- 70% of the women are getting degrees (Tanakh in combination with the University of Haifa, Talmud through Bar Ilan). The emphasis at MaTaN is on study as a religious act, but always combined with high intellectual goals.
Q: What do the MaTaN graduates do after completing their studies?
A: Many teach in Israeli high schools and other midrashot, and others are involved in adult education. There are MaTaN branches in Ra’anana, Haifa, Beersheva, Bet Shemesh, Hashmonayim, Petach Tikva and Netanya. Esti Rosenberg who studied in MaTaN went on to found Migdal Oz. Some of our graduates have gone abroad and have had an impact in the United States and in England. We strongly encourage our graduates to become community leaders.
Q: How has MaTaN expanded its programming?
A: We now have a Torani vocational program for Ethiopian girls, which leads to training for employment as allied health professionals. We have a program for women from Poland who come to Israel to learn. We have the bat-mitzvah program for mothers and daughters to learn together, which stresses Jewish leadership roles for women. We are part of contemporary Israel, and we see MaTaN as having a leadership role in the community, and seek to be responsive to needs of our society. Thus, when we saw a need for a Torah program for Russian immigrants, we provided one. When there were needs for a program for Ethiopian girls that would lead to gainful employment, we set out to establish one.
Q: How do you think MaTaN has influenced Orthodoxy in Israel?
A: Fifteen years ago, there were perhaps 2 or 3 midrashot; now there are 15-17. Even if all of them do not teach Talmud, women are studying Torah Lishma at high levels. There has been an increase in spirit and self-confidence among Orthodox women in the wider community in areas of learning, and MaTaN has had an important role in this development. MaTaN is a catalyst for female religious leadership in Israeli society.
Q: How do you see the role of women in religious leadership in Israel and abroad? How do you see your role? While everybody at MaTaN knows you as “Malke,” you sometimes use the title of “Rabbanit”—indeed that is your title both as the wife of a Rav and in your own right.
A: Let me answer on a personal level. I try not to be confrontational. If my using the title “Rabbanit” is of help to MaTaN, then I use it. I think that there are two titles. One is that of Rav or Rabbanit. For this, the important factor is knowledge combined with piety. While certain other official responsibilities of a Rav are not given to women (such as being mesader kiddushin at a wedding), the role of teacher or social guide is. Women can teach, give derashot, etc. The other title is that of rebbe. The term “rebbe” indicates a personal “rav” or a mentor. A woman is often the rebbe in midrashot. One might say “Aseh lecha rebbe”—the quest for a role model should be gender-neutral. Many female figures in Israel today are role models for religious learning and piety, as Sara Schneirer was in the past.
Q: Do you think institutions like MaTaN would be different if headed by men?
A: Having women in leadership roles in educational institutions is a natural development. Women are giving high level shiurim, and are in high level positions. I believe strongly in a partnership between male and female leaders. Both have leadership roles for Am Yisrael. As regards other institutions, many of those headed by men have women in high level positions.
Q: Do you see MaTaN as having a role in wider Israeli society?
A: MaTaN is still not known enough in the hiloni (secular) society. Oshra Koren has been working in Ra’anana for 12 years now, giving shiurim and organizing activities including bat-mitzvah classes. This has very much brought a Torah atmosphere to Ra’anana, and is a model for other locations. We are looking forward to seeing such outreach through dedicated and creative leadership in other places.
Q: What else do you see in the future for MaTaN?
A: I see expansion in terms of breadth and depth. As regards breadth, every Jew should have a taste of Torah, and learning should be available in all places in Israel. We provide high level genuine non-coercive learning. We are doing this through our array of courses, the bat mitzvah programs, and our summer programs. We have a daf yomi program, have started an academic journal called Massekhet which is dedicated to the exploration of questions relating to women’s position in Judaism, and have many yemai iyyun (days of learning). We have started evening programs to accommodate women who work all day. Young women after they have completed their army service come to learn at MaTaN before going to university. As regards to depth, I want to see more women who can learn and teach Tanakh, Talmud and Jewish Thought at high levels, and lead batei midrash.
Q: To what extent do you think that having Hebrew as the Israeli students’ native tongue affects the level of teaching and learning at MaTaN?
A: At the beginning, it makes things much easier as the language of the sources is more accessible and not a barrier to learning and comprehension. Even for the non-religious students, it is much easier to understand the material, and for those women who have studied at religious schools, they have already greater proficiency in Tanakh, and covered more ground than their peers outside Israel. Because of the greater prior knowledge among the mainstream, more can reach a higher level in their studies, and we see that in the large numbers of women who come to our yemai iyyun and seminars. This is not to say that there are not many Anglo Saxon students who are at a very high level, as well as many outstanding teachers who are not native Israelis.
Q: Is there a difference between the way women and men learn?
A: It is obviously hard to generalize, but women seem perhaps to have a more practical orientation and are more socially conscious and sensitive to nonlegal aspects, looking to see the “reallife” applications of the textual material. Also, because Israeli women’s background in Tanakh is stronger than that of their male peers, they connect more with quoted pasukim (verses), and their background knowledge in Aggada is also extensive. This is not to say that women are not intensely interested in the legalistic parts of the learning as well.
Q: Has women learning and teaching Talmud in Israel brought about any shift in direction in the way Talmud is being taught or is it too early to tell?
A: Many male high school students are not attracted to the more traditional approaches to Gemara. It might be that an approach similar to women’s Talmud study, emphasizing connections to society and community, as well as learning as a spiritual act, would be more effective. Many times we have heard from a male teacher, “If only our male students would have the enthusiasm of our female students.” At MaTaN we try to stress that learning should be new and fresh and exciting every day—the stress on “hayom”(today).